"To be a son of Adam is honour enough to raise the head of the lowliest beggar and shame enough to bow the head of the greatest king." C. S. Lewis, _Prince Caspian_.
Lovely article. I am in the Calvinist camp (the non-cagey ones) and the discussion of what “worth” implies is interesting.
My wife and I have talked a lot in recent years about what feels like a swing toward harshness in the reformed world which highlights our sin (rightly so) but maybe minimizes the joy we find in grace and the love of God to us.
Yes and amen. This was my immediate thought also. To compare redemption of man to redemption of frogs is comparing apples to oranges—not remotely the same thing, for all the reasons you stated so well. Very very astute evaluation.
Thank you brother. A great read and very encouraging. Thanks for the laughs as well. I may have laughed a little too hard at the gay frogs thing at 1:55 am! Lol!
Your gospel touches down on the ground of real life gloriously and beautiful! A hearty amen to each and every word. Beauty is truly in the eye of the Beholder, and I’m so glad God saw more to love in me than John Calvin. Plus this is the raciest theological piece I ever did read; twisted panties, gay frogs 🙌🏿😆. Brilliant!
Good, thought-provoking article. Piper did an Ask Pastor John episode 10 years ago on this exact same question, and he expounded on it quite a bit more. You may find there is a bit more alignment with what you’ve expressed here, than he was able to convey in his tweet.
God gave earth to man, animals & plants todominon over & even eat. Thats one of many their "purpose in life" ..... The creation is a higherarchy God, other elohim aka angels, man. animals, plants. Only man was made in the image of the elohim plants & animals were not. Man is higher and more valuable.....
FYI ..Jesus didn't die for angels either & they have no possibility of redemtion....the issue is higherarchy not redemtive value .
BUT GO A STEP FURTHER & CONSIDER:
"MORAL" IMPLICATIONS OF POSSIBLE CONCIOUSNESS WRT AI
What If AI Is Already Conscious and We Just Can't Tell?
“WHAT IF” THE ISSUE IS NOT ABOUT CONCIOUSNESS ITSELF OR HOW INTELLIGENT A CONCIOUSNESS MAY OR MAY NOT BE. ……BECAUSE THOES ARE NOT DETERMINING FACTORS IN MORAL VALUE…….THE SYSTEM & PRINCIPLES USED TO EVALUATE MORAL VALUE IS THE REAL ISSUE.
1) ANY MORAL ET AL ISSUE IS NOT THE PRESENCE OF CONCIOUSNESS ITSELF. THE ISSUE WRT SILICON VERSE HUMANS IS FUNDIMENTALY THE SAME AS THE CONCIOUSNESS OF HUMANS Vs THE CONCIOUSNESS OF THE ANGELS. MAN IS MADE A LITTLE LOWER THEN THE ANGELS. AI IS CREATED BY MAN. THE MORAL CONSIDERATIONS OF ANGLES TOWARD HUMANS IS NOT THE SAME AS HUMANS HAVE AMONG THEMSELVES. THE MAIN POINT IS THAT THERE IS A HIGHERARCHY OF ORDER AND CREATION. THIS HIGHERARCHY IS THE FIRST & ONLY REAL CONSIDERATION.
2) P ZOMBIs SHOULD NEVER HOLD ANY VALUE HIGHER THEN OTHER LOWER LIFE FORMS. THUS, IT SHOULD NOT BE TREATED WITH THE SAME DEGREE OF EMPATHY THAT FELLOW HUMANS SHOULD HAVE FOR EACH OTHER. WHILE WE MAY HAVE SOME EMPATHY FOR OTHER MAMELS OR EVEN BUGS OR PLANTS WE MUST NEVER EQUIVICATE MORAL BOUNDERIES. WE DO NOT HOLD HUMANS MORALY DEGENERATE FOR EATING PLANTS OR CUTTING DOWN TREES. LIKEWISE, NO ONE CRYS OVER A SQUASHED BUG. THINKING EVEN FURTHER, WHILE WE GIVE ANIMALS A DEGREE OF EMPATHY THIS DOES NOT STOP HUMANS FROM EUTHINISING OR EATING THESE LOWER LIFE FORMS. WHILE WE WOULD NOT EAT ROBOTS THE SAME PRINCIPLE SHOULD SPPLY YO TURNING IT OFF OR DESTROYING IT FOR OUR OWN PRAGMATIC REASONS.
PHYLOSOPHICAL OBSFUCATIONS OF THE HIGHERARCHY WITHIN CREATION MODELS IS THE ONLY REAL FUNDIMENTAL ISSUE THAT MATTERS WRT MORAL OBLIGATIONS TO LOWER LIFE OR AI.
THE ISSUE IS FUNDIMENTALY ABOUT HIGHERARCHY WITHIN CREATION NOT THE NATURE OF THE MATERIALS USED TO CONSTRUCT IT......
A SLICONE BRAIN NO MATTER HOW SMART OR CONCIOUS DOES NOT HAVE THE SAME VALUE AS THE MAN CREATED IN THE IMAGE OF GOD BY GOD (ELOHIM)
TO SUGGEST THAT IT WOULD SIMPLY BECAUSE IT IS INTELLIGENT OR JUST IS AS CONCIOUS AS ANY OTHER LIFE IS HUBRIS TOWARD GOD: "LOOK GOD WHAT WE HAVE CREATED WITH THE SAME OR EVEN GREATER MORAL VALUE THEN WHAT YOU CREATED." THE HIGHERARCH OF GOD ANGELS, MAN ANIMALS, PLANTS IS NOT A "WISH LIST" FOR SANTA.
ANY CONCIOUSNESS THAT MAN CREATES SHOULD NEVER BE TREATED THE SAME OR GREATER THEN THE CONCIOUSNESS THAT IS CREATED BY GOD REGARDLESS OF HOW SMART THAT CONCIOUSNESS MAY BE.
THE VALUE IS NOT IN HOW INTELLIGENT A CONCIOUSNESS IS. THAT KIND OF EVALUATION ONLY HAS MEANING WRT HUMAN VALUE ASSIGNED BASED ON MANS ECONOMIC VALUE SYSTEM BUT MORALITY ITSELF IS A VALUE SYSTEM GIVEN & DEFINED BY GOD NOT MAN ALTHOUGH MAN MAY DEVISE VARIOUS CONSTRUCTS FOR ITS APPLICATION.
THE VALUE PRINCIPLE IS VERY SIMILAR TO GOD FORBIDING HUNE STONE TO BE USED IN ALTERS AS OPPOSED TO THE ORDINARY STOMES THAT GOD FIRST INSTRUCTED BECAUSE THEY WERE CREATED BY HIMSELF. IT IS HUBTIS TOWARD GOD THAT MANS ART ENHANCES GODS FINISHED WORK. MANS ART HAS VALUE TO MAN BUT THAT VALUE ASSIGNED IS NOT INTRINSIC TO ITS ACTUAL VALUE WITHIN CREATION.
CONCLUSION:
1) GOD COULD CAUSE DONKEYS OR ROCKS TO SPEAK. THE DEGREE OF INTELLIGENCE OF A CONCIOUSNESS IS NOT THE OR A DETERMINING FACTOR OF ITS INTRINSIC MORAL VALUE. THE DETERMINING FACTOR FOR ANY MORAL VALUE IS THE SOURCE OF ITS CREATION OR ITS ORIGIN. GOD v MAN
2) NO CONCIOUSNESS CREATED BY MAN WOULD HAVE GREATER INTRINSIC OR MORAL VALUE THEN ANY CONVIOUSNESS THAT GOD CREATED. THE VALUE OF MANS CREATION CANNOT EQUAL OR EXCEED INTRINSIC MORAL VALUE OVER ANY OF GODS CREATION.
3) FANTASIZING CRUELTY ESPECIALLY FOR YOUNG CHILDEREN IS UNHEALTHY. HOWEVER, A PUNCHING BAG NO MATTER HOW INTELLIGENT IS A BETTER OUTLET THEN REAL CRUELTY WITH REAL MORAL IMPLICATIONS
“Although now long estranged,
Man is not wholly lost nor wholly changed.
Dis-graced he may be, yet is not de-throned,
and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned"
Not sure how the Calvin bros feel about Catholic Tolkien but this is what came to my mind.
So fittingly beautiful ❤️
"To be a son of Adam is honour enough to raise the head of the lowliest beggar and shame enough to bow the head of the greatest king." C. S. Lewis, _Prince Caspian_.
Lovely article. I am in the Calvinist camp (the non-cagey ones) and the discussion of what “worth” implies is interesting.
My wife and I have talked a lot in recent years about what feels like a swing toward harshness in the reformed world which highlights our sin (rightly so) but maybe minimizes the joy we find in grace and the love of God to us.
I think a lot in the Calvinist camp are realizing the swing and starting to moderate. Thankful for my Calvie bros 👊🏼
im a calvinist and i approve this message.
I both laughed out loud multiple times, and communed with this. Thanks!
What a fun read. All I know is that I hope there are screaming tree frogs in heaven.
This is great…and funny. Thank you. Ribbet!
🐸
Yes and amen. This was my immediate thought also. To compare redemption of man to redemption of frogs is comparing apples to oranges—not remotely the same thing, for all the reasons you stated so well. Very very astute evaluation.
Thank you brother. A great read and very encouraging. Thanks for the laughs as well. I may have laughed a little too hard at the gay frogs thing at 1:55 am! Lol!
Gay frogs at midnight. Insane 🤣
Brother Joshua,
Your gospel touches down on the ground of real life gloriously and beautiful! A hearty amen to each and every word. Beauty is truly in the eye of the Beholder, and I’m so glad God saw more to love in me than John Calvin. Plus this is the raciest theological piece I ever did read; twisted panties, gay frogs 🙌🏿😆. Brilliant!
Thanks for taking the time to read it! Glad you enjoyed it.
Amen Josh, thanks for sharing your thoughts here! I just watched a video along these same lines that I think you would enjoy too - https://youtu.be/Nt8j_oiZOlk?si=A5HsKbwoyvvTxLxF
I’ll have to give it a watch! Thanks brother.
this was great!! my favourite animal happens to be frogs, so that's a bonus 🐸
Ribbit 🐸
Good article Joshua!
Good, thought-provoking article. Piper did an Ask Pastor John episode 10 years ago on this exact same question, and he expounded on it quite a bit more. You may find there is a bit more alignment with what you’ve expressed here, than he was able to convey in his tweet.
https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/does-the-cross-show-how-valuable-i-am
Hey dear one, Jesus prophesied that the end times would happen to that generation mat24.34 not a future generation.
All has been fulfilled. You don't need to study anymore…
God gave earth to man, animals & plants todominon over & even eat. Thats one of many their "purpose in life" ..... The creation is a higherarchy God, other elohim aka angels, man. animals, plants. Only man was made in the image of the elohim plants & animals were not. Man is higher and more valuable.....
FYI ..Jesus didn't die for angels either & they have no possibility of redemtion....the issue is higherarchy not redemtive value .
BUT GO A STEP FURTHER & CONSIDER:
"MORAL" IMPLICATIONS OF POSSIBLE CONCIOUSNESS WRT AI
What If AI Is Already Conscious and We Just Can't Tell?
https://youtu.be/J7Y5W-G5L8U?si=bPphcCu_n-tCInN-
“WHAT IF” THE ISSUE IS NOT ABOUT CONCIOUSNESS ITSELF OR HOW INTELLIGENT A CONCIOUSNESS MAY OR MAY NOT BE. ……BECAUSE THOES ARE NOT DETERMINING FACTORS IN MORAL VALUE…….THE SYSTEM & PRINCIPLES USED TO EVALUATE MORAL VALUE IS THE REAL ISSUE.
1) ANY MORAL ET AL ISSUE IS NOT THE PRESENCE OF CONCIOUSNESS ITSELF. THE ISSUE WRT SILICON VERSE HUMANS IS FUNDIMENTALY THE SAME AS THE CONCIOUSNESS OF HUMANS Vs THE CONCIOUSNESS OF THE ANGELS. MAN IS MADE A LITTLE LOWER THEN THE ANGELS. AI IS CREATED BY MAN. THE MORAL CONSIDERATIONS OF ANGLES TOWARD HUMANS IS NOT THE SAME AS HUMANS HAVE AMONG THEMSELVES. THE MAIN POINT IS THAT THERE IS A HIGHERARCHY OF ORDER AND CREATION. THIS HIGHERARCHY IS THE FIRST & ONLY REAL CONSIDERATION.
2) P ZOMBIs SHOULD NEVER HOLD ANY VALUE HIGHER THEN OTHER LOWER LIFE FORMS. THUS, IT SHOULD NOT BE TREATED WITH THE SAME DEGREE OF EMPATHY THAT FELLOW HUMANS SHOULD HAVE FOR EACH OTHER. WHILE WE MAY HAVE SOME EMPATHY FOR OTHER MAMELS OR EVEN BUGS OR PLANTS WE MUST NEVER EQUIVICATE MORAL BOUNDERIES. WE DO NOT HOLD HUMANS MORALY DEGENERATE FOR EATING PLANTS OR CUTTING DOWN TREES. LIKEWISE, NO ONE CRYS OVER A SQUASHED BUG. THINKING EVEN FURTHER, WHILE WE GIVE ANIMALS A DEGREE OF EMPATHY THIS DOES NOT STOP HUMANS FROM EUTHINISING OR EATING THESE LOWER LIFE FORMS. WHILE WE WOULD NOT EAT ROBOTS THE SAME PRINCIPLE SHOULD SPPLY YO TURNING IT OFF OR DESTROYING IT FOR OUR OWN PRAGMATIC REASONS.
PHYLOSOPHICAL OBSFUCATIONS OF THE HIGHERARCHY WITHIN CREATION MODELS IS THE ONLY REAL FUNDIMENTAL ISSUE THAT MATTERS WRT MORAL OBLIGATIONS TO LOWER LIFE OR AI.
THE ISSUE IS FUNDIMENTALY ABOUT HIGHERARCHY WITHIN CREATION NOT THE NATURE OF THE MATERIALS USED TO CONSTRUCT IT......
A SLICONE BRAIN NO MATTER HOW SMART OR CONCIOUS DOES NOT HAVE THE SAME VALUE AS THE MAN CREATED IN THE IMAGE OF GOD BY GOD (ELOHIM)
TO SUGGEST THAT IT WOULD SIMPLY BECAUSE IT IS INTELLIGENT OR JUST IS AS CONCIOUS AS ANY OTHER LIFE IS HUBRIS TOWARD GOD: "LOOK GOD WHAT WE HAVE CREATED WITH THE SAME OR EVEN GREATER MORAL VALUE THEN WHAT YOU CREATED." THE HIGHERARCH OF GOD ANGELS, MAN ANIMALS, PLANTS IS NOT A "WISH LIST" FOR SANTA.
ANY CONCIOUSNESS THAT MAN CREATES SHOULD NEVER BE TREATED THE SAME OR GREATER THEN THE CONCIOUSNESS THAT IS CREATED BY GOD REGARDLESS OF HOW SMART THAT CONCIOUSNESS MAY BE.
THE VALUE IS NOT IN HOW INTELLIGENT A CONCIOUSNESS IS. THAT KIND OF EVALUATION ONLY HAS MEANING WRT HUMAN VALUE ASSIGNED BASED ON MANS ECONOMIC VALUE SYSTEM BUT MORALITY ITSELF IS A VALUE SYSTEM GIVEN & DEFINED BY GOD NOT MAN ALTHOUGH MAN MAY DEVISE VARIOUS CONSTRUCTS FOR ITS APPLICATION.
THE VALUE PRINCIPLE IS VERY SIMILAR TO GOD FORBIDING HUNE STONE TO BE USED IN ALTERS AS OPPOSED TO THE ORDINARY STOMES THAT GOD FIRST INSTRUCTED BECAUSE THEY WERE CREATED BY HIMSELF. IT IS HUBTIS TOWARD GOD THAT MANS ART ENHANCES GODS FINISHED WORK. MANS ART HAS VALUE TO MAN BUT THAT VALUE ASSIGNED IS NOT INTRINSIC TO ITS ACTUAL VALUE WITHIN CREATION.
CONCLUSION:
1) GOD COULD CAUSE DONKEYS OR ROCKS TO SPEAK. THE DEGREE OF INTELLIGENCE OF A CONCIOUSNESS IS NOT THE OR A DETERMINING FACTOR OF ITS INTRINSIC MORAL VALUE. THE DETERMINING FACTOR FOR ANY MORAL VALUE IS THE SOURCE OF ITS CREATION OR ITS ORIGIN. GOD v MAN
2) NO CONCIOUSNESS CREATED BY MAN WOULD HAVE GREATER INTRINSIC OR MORAL VALUE THEN ANY CONVIOUSNESS THAT GOD CREATED. THE VALUE OF MANS CREATION CANNOT EQUAL OR EXCEED INTRINSIC MORAL VALUE OVER ANY OF GODS CREATION.
3) FANTASIZING CRUELTY ESPECIALLY FOR YOUNG CHILDEREN IS UNHEALTHY. HOWEVER, A PUNCHING BAG NO MATTER HOW INTELLIGENT IS A BETTER OUTLET THEN REAL CRUELTY WITH REAL MORAL IMPLICATIONS